Curse

ogami_ito · Nov 13, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

I previously started a thread about will Warriors become less popular because of Paragon and Dervish.

As a result of observation and discussion, Its pretty clear that Paragon do not replace warriors at all.

But now I want to ask about Dervishes.

And I’m not talking about Mage or Monk-like dervishes that spam AOE attacks and healing. I would like to compare “close-combat” dervs and their functions to warriors. Here is what I think:

Hammer Warrior has a unique spot. Durable KD. I never play it myself because I don’t find hammers to be ascetically pleasing. But I get owned by it all the time. No other class really has an equivalent (shove sins are not equivalent. Maybe better in some ways, but not the same)

Axe Warrior (Evis+Execut) is a pressure-spike build that does a decent amount of damage + Deep wounds. To me, I think I lot of people like this build and trust it, but it is no longer a top-build for “pressure spike”. A melee-centered derv with Mystic Sweep and that deep-wounds spreading elite that does damage (not Wounding strike but the other one that starts with an R) can do much more damage, spread more conditions, and is just as durable (because of Mystic Regen) unless subject to the attentions of a mesmer. Agree or Disagree?

Dragon-Slash sword warrior is the king of reliable DPS pressure in a hard-shell form. Still more DPS than Dervs, but no spikyness. But probably less DPS than a Thumper. Agree or Disagree?

[edited because I'm a big stonner and put unrelated stuff from another post into this post.]

0mar · Nov 13, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

It's only been a couple weeks, so the meta-game hasn't settled yet. I think Dervishes will probably end up being more popular than Assassins, but won't replace Warriors as main damage dealers. Evis-Executioner's is just too reliable. Reaper's Sweep + Chilling Victory or Mystic Sweep is good, but Reaper's needs under 50% to trigger. It's a great finisher, but it won't deal as much damage as a Warrior will all the time.

Dervish has some great potential as walking AOE bombs with their Wind/Earth prayers. Mystic Sandstorm or Mystic Twister gives them great pressure potential.

Patrograd · Nov 13, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

You cant really ask a dervish to do what a warrior does imo. Warriors are about so much more than pure damage numbers. Their huge utility, their ability to overextend, their ability, above all else, to suddenly and without warning make that "headshot" that turns a game. if you want a constant sheer physical threat then you just cant beat a warrior.

Dervishes are a really interesting class though. They seem quite strong in duels and skirmishes with pretty much anything. As a result they look like really quite useful solo and split characters, more in the roles traditionally assigned to rangers and assassins I think than to those a warrior would do.

ogami_ito · Nov 13, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

OK. I just want to break down what does "versatility" here mean. Besides KD warriors / hammer warriors that is (as I said in my first post, hammer warrior as far as I know cannot really be duplicated by anything). A Derv can spam attacks as long as he has energy. Including distructive elite deep-wounds attacks. A Derv can have increadable self-heals which more than make up for weaker armor (and offer more protection against armor-ignoring mes attacks). So it would seem that Derv's can "over-extend" even more than Warriors (I may be misunderstanding what overextend means though). So... how is a warrior more versatile? Especially Dragon-Slash warriors and Evicerate warriors

Thom Bangalter · Nov 13, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Warriors are a bigger threat both during a gank (YAA, mending touch w/mos), and at flagstands. I have yet to be impressed by dervishes during a gank, watching them hit for 60 every 3 seconds with no disruption to stop troll seems bad.

ogami_ito · Nov 13, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Does YAA mean "You are All Alone"?

Patrograd · Nov 13, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

OK. I just want to break down what does "versatility" here mean.

When you look at the possible skills available to a warrior you will see that

1) An axe warrior typically only needs two attack skills (which is the chief reason why he is so trusted), a sword or hammer warrior only three (althuogh some hammers bring four). This opens up his bar to all manner of other things, self healing, speed boost, IAS, knockdown, interrupt, whatever is needed, pretty much the definition of utility. A dragon slasher isnt really a utility character, its a pure DPS bot (albeit a DPS bot with over 100 armour), but it shows again the versatility of the class that you can make a DPS bot if thats what you want.
2) The seconday class on a warrior can be pretty much anything you want it to be for further utility - teleports to get around the issue of kiting, snares like shock, condition removal. Furthermore, a sword warrior can, if he chooses use his elite for utility - a huge, huge plus unshared by any other other kind of melee character AFAIK (apart from the newly born shadow prison/flail types).

Overextending. From what I have seen of dervishes, they crumble pretty much when out of monk healing range and subjected to heavy pressure from multiple sources. Warriors can typically get away with it though for longer, meaning they can overreach to get at that vital target deep in the enemy backlines at the key moments in the game when they need to make that kill. They can unload their payload much faster than a dervish can, meaning they can get in, kill, get out. It might be early, but I havent seen a dervish do that yet, and I dont see the skillset that could enable them to, but its possible I'm missing something.

scamPOR · Nov 13, 2006, 10:00 AM // 10:00

yes yaa = your all alone

stueyman2099 · Nov 13, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

they are also frequently refered to as Yaahoos.

Dervishes it seems to me can be more competent in direct pressure than a typical warrior if set up right, while a warrior tends to retain utility.

ogami_ito · Nov 13, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Patrograd, I will not try to prove you wrong because I can't. Don't know enough myself to do so. Also, it seemed to me that Dervs take a lot more to kill because of their awsome self-healing. Don't know. But consider this build

Reaper's Sweep - basically Eviscerate, only the DW is conditional on lower than 50% health. But this can be spammed.
Mystic Sweep - 1/2 cast 4 second recharge. If the derv has 3 enchants, this does +30 damage. That's big.

Those are your two combat attack skills.

Now, for IAS and speed, you got two really good options:

a. Frenzy and say Harrier's Haste (stance,+up to 13 damage against moving targets, +25% run).
b. Better yet, as you need enchants to power Mystic Sweep, you go with Heart of Fury (enchant...33% Ias enchant, plus burning when it ends, 30 sec recharge though) and Featherfoot's Haste (enchant... + 25% run speed and conditions last 50% less). Those to enchants power your Mystic Sweep. Unfortunatly, those two enchants also cost 20e total.

3 slots left (4, but you need rez sig, right?). You need some enchants for healing and to power Mystic Sweep. Pick any three of these:

Aura of thorns for AOE cripple 5e, 12sec recharge
Vital Boon for awsome time delayed self-healinghealing
Mystic Regen for +9 regen for 20 seconds (and just need 8 in Earth Prayers)!!!
Faithfull Intervention (quick healing, but overall so-so)
Watchfull Intervention (lasts 60 seconds, heals when health goes below 25%, can be cast on others)

And/or take Wild Blow to deal with Stancers. A crit scythe is pretty cool.

Point here is...it seems that they can be durable and have some good versetile utility. And here I'm just comparing to Axe Evis/Execut warriors.

Patccmoi · Nov 13, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Actually Dervishes are used more and more and many top 100 guilds started replacing their wars with them. We have 1 single melee in our current GvG build and it's a Dervish with Avatar of Melandru. He's playing a little more safe when his Avatar is down, but when it's up (75/120s, more if Morale Boosts and we have a build that is pretty good at getting them) he can overextend quite easily. With +200 health and no condition (so no cripple and no deep wound) he's a real pain to take down and he can spam Wearying Strike doing quite huge damage (Evis every 2s really but that crits like a Decapitate). We have a hex-heavy build and he uses Siphon Speed + Rending Sweep (remove an enchant if target is hexed, 5E/4s recharge) so he has pretty big enchant removal ability which is really nice when they try to save his target with Spirit Bond, etc. He score kills quite well as only melee. A warrior has good utility, but he doesn't have anything equivalent to Rending Sweep either. So while he might not have as much utility as a warrior, Deep Wound spam + condition immunity (at least around 60% of the time) + Snare + spammable enchant removal is really not that bad.

Other pretty impressive setups i saw and/or faced:

2 D/W + 2 Smite Monk on their back. They had JI, and one used Wounding Strike while the other used Rending Sweep for elite their other attack skills being Wild Blow-Mystic Sweep-Eremite Sweep. They did Wounding-Mystic-Wild Blow-Eremite and the other Wild Blow-Mystic-Reaper's-Eremite. They could spike repeatedly with no need to charge anything, their energy was buffed heavily by the smite monks and their chain Aegis (enchants ending all the time), and they had a Featherfoot Grace and Heart of Fury up most of the time to be kinda like RaO. I'm not sure if it was a smurf guild testing cause they had QQ members in it. The first kill we managed to get was at 19:30 and for some reason we managed to beat them at VoD but that's mostly because of our hex overload managing to keep the Derv down despite Divert + 2 x Smite Hex. When they were functional they were doing MUCH higher pressure than wars by spiking all the damn time. Oh, and they both carried Imbue Health, so they could very easily overextend together as they could both heal each other for around 300 health. Also made it extremely hard to spike the Smite Monks or anyone else because they could just Imbue so you had like 2 Monks, 2 Smite Monks and 2 Infusers to face.

Another impressive setup imo is 2 D/W with Avatar of Grenth and Wild Blow-Mystic-Eremite also using things like Harrier's Grasp for utility. They alternate which has Avatar of Grenth up and they focus target. It's incredibly hard to prot their target because the guy in Avatar of Grenth can Wild Blow his stance and enchants away taking out all defenses repeatedly while they both bash on him. Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond only last a few seconds if that before they go down and a monk can't spam them endlessly. You need to keep the Dervs shutdowned, which is truly not that easy with Divert/RC, because you can't really put up defense against them. Again that's something warriors couldn't do because Warriors have no way to destroy a target's defenses this efficiently. They also had a warrior in the build that was doing the Deep Wounds and handling ganks or the like (i think he was YAA with Mending Touch, I'm not 100% sure though).

Atm in GvG the big strength i see on Dervishes that Warriors can't achieve is their ability to totally destroy a target's defenses. When you can take out enchants and stances on target nearly at will it becomes a serious problem to defend him properly and ends up draining monks energy quite fast.

The other advantage is being able to spike without building adrenaline with very low recharge attacks (Wounding-Mystic-Eremite is all recharged in 4s and does really good damage overall in a very short time frame, especially if you get a crit while buffed with something like JI which is a sure hit over 100 damage most of the time).

Warriors imo have a better disruption ability (Bull's-DBlow-Shock, Hammer wars, etc.) and a better ability to overextend in general because Dervishes remain relatively soft with 80-85 base AL in general (though in Paragon era they can easily have over 100AL with Watch Yourself! spam, but then again if they overextend they won't have it). DPS of both is quite similar if Dervish brings an IAS (Heart of Fury is a very good one) or short activation attacks. It's true that a rounded warrior is extremely versatile on the field. But you don't need 8 extremely versatile people in a build either, and relatively specialized builds that fill different utility can still be very worthy to have. A Dervish is still versatile enough too usually, moreso than an Assassin for example.

I'm pretty sure that Dervishes are just starting to enter GvG and that we'll see a lot more of them soon enough as people start to realize their advantages and make builds favoring them since they require slightly different support than warriors.

Patrograd · Nov 13, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Thanks patccmoi, that was a really interesting and revealing read

Ry Dia · Nov 13, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

In response to Patccmoi:

That was my team you played with the smiters, we aren't a smurf. Just some guild that happened to have a guest from QQ. You analyzed our build kind of well although it's not completely accurate but no big deal.

You guys played us really well IMO, just the few times when our 2 dervishes were clean we were able to get our spikes through. When you had us hexed up it was hell to really do anything aside from smite damage. When we talked about what went wrong, tommy from QQ's input was it was our push for the cat which cost us 2 players that really cost us. We lost 2 people for 2min and your npc's really hurt us and allowed you to push us back after that. =( It was a really good game, and I have to give you guys credit for holding out at the stand til vod while pushed back most of the game.

furbat · Nov 13, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Im gonna say that imbue health is reason enough to take a dervish over a warrior or assasin. I have also found in hero battles at least, that dervishes make much better use out of paragons than warriors do. Dervishes seem to act much like thumpers.

Dervishes also as was pointed out, to be supported by the team through mysticism and enchant striping abilities.

Also, using the 3/4 sec activation abilities the pressure a dervish can dish out is absurd.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 13, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I agree with Patccmoi's assessment as well. One thing I think deserves further discussion is the use of these classes at VoD.

In the current Paragon-based meta most games that matter will go to VoD, usually without either side taking a lot of deaths or being pushed off the flagstand. As such, you have to plan a lot of your offense based on VoD. Most of your offensive plays will only work under the VoD shout, and AoEing NPCs can become a much bigger part of your tactics in a given match.

Dervish scythe attacks are obviously strong against clumped up NPCs due to scythe attacks, though they often won't have the AL to take aggro without depleting all their monk's energy. Their ability to spread conditions to multiple targets is very nice at VOD though, and their already high scythe crits really go through the roof.

Warriors aren't as effective against balled NPCs, but most good warrior bars have Knockdown. Knockdown against players becomes absolutely terrifying at VoD because a good offensive character can drop someone in the 3 seconds of Knockdown time, so long as the VoD shout is flying around.

What's really nice though, is the synergy between two of these. Spikes with one warrior and one Dervish are deadly because of the KD combined with mass damage that isn't being kited. Likewise, the Dervishes' ability to remove important prot is very nice to have in a spike.

I will note though, that Dervishes are very condition-reliant for their anti-kiting and threat. I've seen a lot more guilds bringing RC Prots recently, and that's going to walk all over most Dervish scythe builds I'm aware of. Spammable cripples and deep wounds are cool, but against RC you're just going to get kited around all day, and you won't have nearly the same threat as a warrior with Bull's Strike.

Overall, I like the class and I think they can be a very serious damage threat. They work differently than warriors in some ways, but they're excellent at what they do.

Patccmoi · Nov 13, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ry Dia

In response to Patccmoi:

That was my team you played with the smiters, we aren't a smurf. Just some guild that happened to have a guest from QQ. You analyzed our build kind of well although it's not completely accurate but no big deal.

You guys played us really well IMO, just the few times when our 2 dervishes were clean we were able to get our spikes through. When you had us hexed up it was hell to really do anything aside from smite damage. When we talked about what went wrong, tommy from QQ's input was it was our push for the cat which cost us 2 players that really cost us. We lost 2 people for 2min and your npc's really hurt us and allowed you to push us back after that. =( It was a really good game, and I have to give you guys credit for holding out at the stand til vod while pushed back most of the game.

Nice to get an answer from you. Sorry to say you were a smurf guild if you weren't, you played really well though and your build was damn hard to handle (i bet you must streamrole most teams that try to go in a 8v8 situation because i have no clue how we would've hold you back without our massive shutdown). Since we use this particular hex build you're the only team that managed to hold us back in 8v8 situation, usually we manage to overwhelm the other team's defense quite fast even when they run Divert + BLight. You actually made us mod our build so we could handle something like that better, because we didn't consider that our build could actually handle it after the game. And we came to the same conclusion as you while talking about how we won afterwards (because it was a big surprise for us too, nobody really expected the VoD win), that the cata push was your mistake. It's the only reason we managed to get a kill there and losing an offense guy out of rez range costs a lot when VoD starts. I can't say for sure what would've happen otherwise, would've depend on how well i managed to keep your 2 Dervs shutdowned (i was the E/N throwing all the hate at them) until our NPCs gain the advantage but i would've bet on your win.

And Squidget, while i agree that RC is there, i think that it's not that much of a threat to Dervishes because of that insane spammability. A Dervish with a move speed buff and Harrier's Grasp doesn't care much if that cripple is removed because he's applying it every hit (unless his target also has a move speed buff ofc but vs casters that's not often the case). It depends on the build ofc since some might rely fully on the cripple, but imo a melee with no IMS, kd or reliable range snare is a very bad idea in the first place.

Analysis at VoD seems quite correct with what we're experiencing atm though with our Dervish. In Avatar of Melandru he can usually hold NPC fire ok, but he definitely costs more to monks to keep alive than a warrior does.

I really agree that they have a good synergy potential and it's really not about Dervish replacing Warrior, both can very well be used together. It's about finally having a viable alternative to warrior coming into play with different strengths and weaknesses. With Ele buff and Dervishes coming in, i think that there should be quite a bit of variety coming out on the composition of offense and that finally after 1 year and a half we might see solid balanced builds that don't run a 2 wars offense.

I'd also agree in part with what Furbat said in the sense that Imbue Health is really an incredible spell for Dervish (not that it's always reason enough to pick Derv over War or Sin though) . You can be all-out damage with an Avatar or Scythe elite going Scythe-Mysticism and still have an instant 300 heal available as utility. This allows for overextending with 2 people really well as they can save each other till monks are there, or to help against spike teams, etc. Watchful Intervention, which we use on Dervish too, is also a really nice enchant that you can leave on softies that are likely to get hate like a Mesmer or Monks (and yourself ofc). It lasts 72 sec and will heal for 170-200 if they get below 25% so it's like a +200 max health that doesn't remove your Prot Spirit efficiency. Even while someone is focused you can throw it on him and it's the equivalent of a 1s cast Heal Other with 15s recharge. Those healing abilities in their primary attribute have really big potential imo.

Divineshadows · Nov 13, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I've seen a lot more guilds bringing RC Prots recently, and that's going to walk all over most Dervish scythe builds I'm aware of. Spammable cripples and deep wounds are cool, but against RC you're just going to get kited around all day, and you won't have nearly the same threat as a warrior with Bull's Strike.

The dervish could just go D/W and bring bull's strike. With bull's strike, the dervish can even knock down multiple foes at once though this should not happen often. A couple seasons ago, several guilds were switching one of their warriors to energy based warriors with shove, thrill of victory, and wild blow to help get through stance based defenses. A D/W with wild blow could really assist a knockdown warrior on a spike.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 13, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The dervish could just go D/W and bring bull's strike. With bull's strike, the dervish can even knock down multiple foes at once though this should not happen often. A couple seasons ago, several guilds were switching one of their warriors to energy based warriors with shove, thrill of victory, and wild blow to help get through stance based defenses. A D/W with wild blow could really assist a knockdown warrior on a spike.

Bull's Strike on a D/W isn't all that attractive though. 2 second knockdown with Scythe attack speed probably won't give you more than 1 extra swing, two if you use one of the 3/4s attacks. Then consider that a lot of warrior builds can follow up with a Shock or Hammer Bash to keep someone locked down for a full six seconds.

Seamus Finn · Nov 13, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Is the dervish really THAT much squishier than a warrior? I mean, against any decent team, a warrior is an 80(ok fine, a hammer warrior, but people don't really run those and think fo them as "squishies" do they?) armor level target since people will be punishing with elemental damage/mods or damage through armor. The dervish, and even assassin, are 70 base, but things like conviction and dark escape, as well as the absence of frenzy from most of their bars(and a shield swap), are no where near as squishie as say a dom mesmer with a 2 secs distortion(if he even has that) and not very far from a hammer warrior. Am I the only one who thinks this way?

Patccmoi · Nov 13, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

They're not that squishier than a Hammer War, but in some situation it shows, like VoD. NPCs won't switch to elemental mods to target your warriors and all they do mostly is raw physical damage (no +damage). So a Hammer Warrior has 100AL against them, a Dervish 70-80AL. That difference will show if you receive 5 arrows in the face every 2.5s and your monks will feel it. It also makes Dervishes easier to spike in general (note that Hammer Warriors ARE fairly easy to spike and are not as tanky as sword/axe warriors by a fair margin. A Thumper with +10AL vs Physical armor is about as good tank if not better than a Hammer warrior in many situations).

Axe/Sword warriors will have 116 AL vs Physical which means they will take around half the damage a Dervish does against NPCs so yes, they tank a lot better.

But Dervishes despite the same base AL are still a step over Assassins and aren't that easy to take down overall.